chelydra

Along the same lines....

http://signon.org/sign/navy-under-water-sound.fb12?source=s.fb&r_by=4876928

chelydra

http://www.thinkdraw.com/picture.php?pictureId=164542

This challenge doesn't care when pix are made - here's another cloro gem.

mum23

I haven't drawn a picture for this most worthwhile of causes, and there are no words that will make any difference either, but, along with the rest of you, I was disgusted at South Korea's announcement, and the decision to reject the declaration of a whale sanctuary in the southern Atlantic on the same day.

Watching the destruction of our planet fills most of us with sadness, anger and frustration. In big projects, and in small, the environment and our fellow creatures are seen as expendable. We are all part of the problem, just because of how we are as a global society, even if we do what we can to make a difference locally.

This morning I saw a news story which sickened me... the wilful murder of thousands of sea turtles in Trinidad. How much do you have to pay somebody to do that? Do the people that are capable of doing it have hearts? Do the people who fire harpoons into whales feel anything?

I understand how big business can make decisions that put money above all else. I know that the all-important economy and the growth that our system demands to be healthy, drives all this stuff. These decisions get made at the top, and the little people down below, who often have no other options, do the dirty work.

Something is dreadfully wrong when these things can happen. I hope its not too late to save us from ourselves.

clorophilla

I could subscribe every single word of you, mum!
I'm really scared by the things I see and hear every day. Anyway, I see also good people doing good things, with not so much rumor. I believe in the good inside every person, I just think that humanity in miguided and messed up by the unnatural environment we grow up (I say both physical and socio-psychological environment as well).

ok - as the old pics are allowed to be there, here there are two of mine:

whales in the mist,
http://www.thinkdraw.com/picture.php?pictureId=143852
dolphin eye
http://www.thinkdraw.com/picture.php?pictureId=127951

mdawrcn

http://www.thinkdraw.com/picture.php?pictureId=173251

Can't We All Just Get Along

I agree wholeheartedly with comments made here and wish I could say what I feel as eloquently as Mum and Clo. It hurts me so badly, I cannot even look at the things you are describing, and turn my head in disgust and with overwhelmed emotions. I cannot understand how our society can allow these crimes against our natural world to continue. Makes me want to disassociate myself from the human race sometimes, and that's why I like trees better that people.

mdawrcn

http://www.thinkdraw.com/picture.php?pictureId=145181

Flipper

chelydra

Although the feelings expressed here might be described as spine-chilled horror, cold fury, and icy despair, these responses are heartwarming. First, because there IS a response - I wasn't sure there would be any - and second, because the words and pictures are so eloquent.
And now (partly because pressing deadlines always inspire me to do other things), it's time for a short break to tell a few whaling yarns.

First, a couple from Sea Shepherd, from a while ago:

Several members of SS went undercover and signed on as junior crew members on Iceland's whaling ships. When they were all (just four I think, but four little ships can do a lot of damage) docked, two of them sank one night. Arrests were made, but the Icelandic government wanted the general, not the footsoldiers, and put out an arrest warrant for Watson, who was far away. But to their surprise, he took the next plane to Reykjavik to offer himself up for arrest and trial. He'd arranged for a press conference to meet him when he landed. He announced why he'd come, and said he'd be delighted to cooperate, and was eagerly looking forward to a courtroom debate that was sure to be followed by the international media. Iceland asked him to please go away again, and take his crewmen with him--or rather, ordered them off the island on the next flight out. Before he went, he pointed out to the press the clear message of this refusal to arrest him: "It is now legal to sink whaling ship in Iceland!" (Incidentally, no one was hurt in those careful and efficient sinkings - in contrast to the Franch Navy's fatal attack on the Rainbow Warrior.)

A couple of years later, Watson & Co. were holding talks with Japanese fishing industry officials—I think the issue was dolphin killing—to make sure that their new round of sea battles wouldn't get any more destructive than necessary. The Japanese were genuinely curious about Watson's beliefs, which simply made no sense to them. One question they posed was, "But of course, if a situation arose where you had to choose between saving a Japanese fisherman and saving a dolphin, you would save the human being... Wouldn't you?" Watson deadpanned, "We're not sailing halfway around the world to save Japanese fishermen."

Sea Shepherd's origins lie in Watson's falling out with Greenpeace during the Canadian baby seal slaughter. This was supposed to be a symbolic show of passive resistance to awaken the conscience of Canada's legislators. But when Watson saw a club about the descend on a baby's adorable little fuzzy white head with its trusting round dark eyes, he leapt at the perpetrator to deflect the blow. This was regarded as an unforgivable breach of discipline. Watson was disgusted, and started Sea Shepherd soon after.

Why do they do it?

Paul and Anne Ehrlich are best known for their 1968 bestseller, The Population Bomb (subsequently modified by articles explaining that one rich Texan's existence has more environemntal impact that a couple of thousand frugal Indian peasants), but they've been involved on all fronts in the eco-wars. Circa 1990, they were meeting with Japanese businessmen involved in whaling. They asked why. The answer: "A 10% return on our investment." The Ehrlichs asked how they could ignore that this was driving whales to extinction, and that then their investment would be worthless. "When that happens, we will move our capital to another industry that offers 10% or close to it."

Okay, back to the challenge, let's have a few more pictures and comments before we move on to another issue that promises similar returns!

AFSOUTH

http://www.thinkdraw.com/picture.php?pictureId=173262

chelydra

How do people feel about considering this Propaganda Challenge No. 1? (As I've written elsewhere, or maybe it was earlier here, I consider propagandist a noble calling, and propaganda merely a generic term for persuasive art, writing, or both.) If there's any interest (maybe even if there isn't) I think I'd like to name a winner and pass the torch. There would be no limit of any kind imposed on what cause the winner advocates, and asks others to join in advocating. It could be wiping out the heartbreaking scourge of topiary, singing the merits of Coca-Cola, urging people to sign up for military service in the Falkland [Malvinas] Islands... or something more generally recognized as a worthy cause, if you want others to join in whole-heartedly. I do like my idea of encouraging dissenting entries and either awarding a contrarian prize for the best dissenter - or, if they succeed in changing the opinion of the judge on his or her chosen subject, the regular prize for best propaganda for OR against the judge's position (which doesn't necessarily have to be revealed, as long as the issue or controversy is identified and explained if necessary).

Feedback, please.

By the way, I might send emails to various organizations and government agencies suggesting they have a look at look at what's been drawn and written here, since TD is probably a good random cross-section of the global (internet-connected) population. Will it do any good? Probably not much - I once told the Icelandic ambassador or NYC consul what I thought about whaling and was told, exact quoote "We do not take note of the opinions of fanatics." (I'd been as diplomatic as I could manage in what I said, too.)

chelydra

Only one limitation I would suggest on choices of topics: try not to make it one that's too likely to get our friend Rachel car-bombed or shot, please. The way TD is set up, Rachel is probably easier to track down and dispatch than the rest of us.

clorophilla

I'd like the idea, but personally I'm afraid that I could be just self-moderate b/c I don't like to foster flames on TD. In example, Breastfeeding support is a cause that really worth because it make a very large difference in family health and economy; but I know that a visual campaign about this subject (as it would be on TD) would cause the strong and negative reaction of English-speaking people, as BF in public is a big issue in these Countries (this is part of the matter in fact). Once it happened on TD that a fine pic was reproached b/c showing the simple act of a mother feeding a baby, and this resulted in that beautiful picture deleted.
Another cause I would like to foster is vegan nutrition but I don't know if I've desire to sustain a draining discussion as that I had in the past about some pic I did on this topic...
What I mean to say is that an emergency challenge need to be just very open as you describe it Chelydra, but it has to be done with a strong use of respect and comprehension of other point of view. We have a lot of this here anyway, so may be we could face the challenge of challenge

Another thing I would say is that the emergency challenge has to include an action call, for avoiding empty rethoric. Whilst I don't want to hurt anybody if I foster some hot cause, on the other side I neither want to run "innocuous" challenges (i.e. all of us are "against" violence, terrorism, polluction etc, but if we dig deeper in each of this issues the thing becames more complicated and thorny).

Sorry for adding maybe more questions than answers

Just another point: why unnumbered? I want here the roman numeration as well!

chelydra

cloro -
i'm just replying to say i've read from a few times, and there's a lot more replying called for than I can manage at present. Even where I might disagree with you somewhat, we are thinking along essentially th same lines - i especially like what you said about digging deeper into 'safe issues' and finding the thorny contraditions - all "environmental issues" are like that, partly because the biggest ecological issue (not exactly the same thing) is the maldistribution of wealth and resources within our own species, requiring ten times for devastation than necessary to provide for basic needs of those without money (because so much of what we take out of the planet does to folks who don't need it). Compared to that, global warming (considered separately, on its own) is a distraction from the problem at hand.


I think we can keep each propaganda challenge alive permanently, although of course most will be dormant most of the time.
that's about 5 or 10% of the replying your idea-package notes call for, cloro. thoughts from others welcome here too of course. The breastfeeding issue is certainly an interesting one. I think most men just don't want to be reminded of what those jugs, knockers, etc, really are - and the women who go the silicone route may be be no less or even more confused. (I didn't say evil or even wrong, please note, and what I'm calling confusion is certainly not acknoledged as confusion by the vast majority of people in the modern world, so I'm not meaning to put individuals on the defensive, I'm saying I think that's probably what it is: confusion. And the distress created by confronting confusion and calling it by its name might not be a good reason to avoid doing it when the real-life aspect of an 'issue' is not unimportant.) (Double negatives in such proliferation make this sound mealy-mouthed.)

chelydra

'(idea-package' was supposed to say 'idea-packed' - i suspect there some auto-correction thing going on here.)

lesley_gene

One more! Precarious

http://www.thinkdraw.com/picture.php?pictureId=173493

chelydra

THIS MESSAGE FROM A FEW DAYS AGO HAS FAR MORE THAN MY USUAL QUOTA OF TYPOS - SO MANY THAT IT SEEMS ALMOST UNINTELLIGIBLE, EVEN TO ME. Because it's a fairly important message (trying to set the stage for the future of the this kind of challenge, or trying to prepare cloro to set it), I'm going to try to correct it all, edit a little (without adding too many new types in the process) and re-post.

cloro -
i'm just replying to say i've read your last message here a few times, and there's a lot more replying called for than I can manage at present. Even though I might disagree with you here and there, we are thinking along essentially the same lines - I especially like what you said about digging deeper into 'safe issues' and finding the thorny contraditions - all "environmental issues" are like that, partly because the biggest ecological problem of all is the maldistribution of wealth and resources within our own species, requiring ten times more devastation than necessary to provide for basic needs of those without money (because so much of what we take out of the planet goes to folks who don't need it). Compared to that, even a huge 'issue' like global warming (unless it's seen in this context of inequality) is a distraction from the problem at hand.


I think we can keep each of the propaganda challenges alive permanently, although of course most will be dormant most of the time.

That's about 5 or 10% of the replying your idea-packed notes call for, cloro. (Thoughts from others are welcome here too of course, to tell us what you think should be considered as guidelines for future challenges in this series.)

The breastfeeding issue is certainly an interesting one. I think most men just don't want to be reminded of what those jugs, knockers, etc, really are - and the women who go the silicone route may be be no less or even more confused. (I didn't say evil or even wrong, please note, and what I'm calling confusion is certainly not acknowledged as that by the vast majority of people in the modern world— so I'm not meaning to put individuals on the defensive, I'm saying I think that's probably what it is: confusion. Confronting confusion may be distressing, especially on a topic as emotional and breasts and breastfeeding ... but part of the purpose of propaganda is to create distress, to expose raw nerves, as step towards getting people to rethink their position. Changing minds is rarely painless or free of conflict. (But creating confrontation, distress, pain and conflict is acceptable ONLY as a step in a process that leads to changed minds and changed behavior, of course; otherwise you just get infantile destructive nonsense that does no good at all. If that were written more concisely, it might serve as a guideline for future propaganda challenges.)

chelydra

In recognition of both her artwork and her thoughtful message above, I'd like to ask cloro to take the next step, and decide what that next step will be:
1. What will be the subject of the next challenge
2. What the challenges will be called collectively (propaganda is a word many people bristle at, so my preference for it can certainly be ignored)
3. What should be the policy for dissenting opinions (I think my ideas on that question - in messages 1 and 29 - are perfect, and should be followed precisely, but then I would think that, wouldn't I?)
4. and anything and everything else (except maybe choices of future subjects, see below)

I don't think "safe issues" (meaning very uncontroversial and popular issues) need to be avoided, as long as they can be meaningfully explored and perhaps redefined (or at least clarified) by art and words from innovative points of view. But then, I also think we should be free to err in every other direction too, as long as the is sincerity in the choice and some kind of sense to be made of it.

chelydra

meant to say at the end: as long as there is sincerity in the choice of subject, and other people can make sense of the subject.

clorophilla

thanks Chelydra - your last two lines say all that has needed!

let me think a bit for a new good emergency challenge!

chelydra

that was the response i was hoping for - the yes part especially --- do feel free to set any precedents, suggest any policies, change what it's called, etc.

The only thing I meant to say by way of reining you in, was please don't rein in too much the future subjects - both supporting cancer research and promoting beast - beast-feeding i was about to write but that'ss okay too - breastfeeding should be available, not banned because they're either too controversial or not controversial enough, is my opinion, but you can still state your opinion too, and future challengers will have their own opinions...

chelydra

...and future challenges I think could also be about subjects or 'causes' that aren't generally acknowledged as being hot topics or even significant ones... cutbacks in music education budgets...elderly abuses. esp. in nursing homes (where inmates aren't even allowed to sneak into each others beds at night)... rare breeds of pigs and chickens dying out... recognizing the one valid argument for bullfighting (it keeps one domestic breed powerful, alert, and dangerous when the rest of its species is reduced to beef and udders)...